And Kendall, as you said in your talk in Colorado that was transcribed on Stand Firm, the PCUSA does NOT want to emulate TEC? Sounds like they are well on their way to me!
[blockquote] Another man, an elder, questioned something Capetz said that he called “a bit dismissive of the importance of Scripture. I believe Scripture trumps all.â€
Capetz replied by saying that, “I certainly didn’t mean to sound dismissive of Scripture. What I’m opposed to is an idolatrous use of the Bible in Protestant usage and ethics as if we didn’t need to reflect in a rigorous method and manner what Scripture teaches … that all we have to do as disciples of Christ is to abide by Scripture. I think that runs dangerously close to idolatry.â€
“This is a denomination that prides itself on a very high level of theological education. Theology matters,†he said.[/blockquote]
By this statement alone, Capetz demonstrates he is spiritually unfit to serve as a Presbyterian minister. It also demonstrates that ultimately this is about twisting and mocking the Word of God, not practicing homosexuality. Of course, this has been going on since they cast Gresham Machen out of Princeton Seminary.
This is the kind of thing that either makes you laugh or cry, or both, one after the other. Yes, this is all despressingly familiar in one sense. It appears that the Presbyterians and Ltherans are determined to follow TEC like lemmings right over the cliff. Actually, that’s unfair. A better analogy would be that they, like us, are drifting along with our permissive culture, especially the Boomers, and they don’t seem to hear the roar of the waterfall ahead. And the drop is Niagara sized…
I can’t count how often I’ve heard liberal friends in TEC pat themselves on the back for being sophisticated. They love to claim that TEC is a church for “thinking people.” That Anglicanism is “a thinking man’s religion” (though, being also an “inclusive church,” they begrudgingly tolerate us biblical “literalists” and “fundamentalists”). But it’s all a crock, a sham.
Maybe we could learn a little humility. Here is some anecdotal evidence from my own educational experience. Here are three little bits of evidence that shows that our boast of being such a thinker’s church is more arrogance and wishful dreaming than reality.
First., I attended Yale Divinity School, a remarkably ecumenical place with a large number of Episcopal students due to the merger of YDS and Bekeley Div. School. I regret to say that in general the Episcopal students were academically INFERIOR to the Lutheran and Presbyterian ones, but about on a par with the Methodist ones.
Second, it’s no secret that the vast majority of TEC clergy are more “Feeling” types than “Thinking” types in terms of the famous Myers-Briggs categories (most are ENFJs or ENFPs, some INFJs or INFPs).
Third, last but not least, during the years that I worked on my Ph.D. at southern Presbyterianism’s flagship seminary, Union in Richmond, I met some fine doctoral students who were Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, even Mennonite and Roman Catholic (the doctoral program at Union-PSCE is very ecumenical, unlike the M.Div. program). But as the years went by, I wondered: why am I the only Episcopalian at Union? Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that in the late 1980s and early 1990s Union was widely regarded as the most conservative top notch Ph.D. program in the country (those were the glory days when Paul Actemeier and Jack Dean Kingsbury taught NT there, and James Luther Mays and Dean McBride taught OT; all four world-class biblical scholars have now retired and Union-PSCE has become significantly more liberal as well as less renowned academically).
The fact is, the creedally-oriented denominations, like the Lutherans and Presbyterians (at least they were creedally oriented in the past!), attract more sharp minds than TEC does. We are too vague and loose about even our core beliefs; those traditions are much clearer and more coherent theologically. That’s why it’s so sad when even Presbyterians fall for this kind of “gay is OK” nonsense. It’s simply capitulation to the permissive culture we live in. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with rigourous intellectual integrity. Nothing whatsoever.
David Handy, Ph.D.
Wheaton College (“the Evangelical Harvard”), B.A., 1977
Yale Div. School, M.Div., 1983
Union-PSCE in Richmond, Ph.D. in New Testament, 1998
(and your humble servant)
The various statements by those at the meeting described seem to substantiate this quote in the previous post: …..”care with language” is the “first casualty of original sin.”
My suggestion is that these folks read 1 Timothy & 2 Timothy about thirty times each. Maybe their ears won’t itch so!
Lemming or goats, I’m unsure which they are. Pity, when Christ Jesus stands ready to heal. They listen to secular apologists for the gay movement instead of reading God’s holy Word in scripture. Thinkers? I think not!
Pray for the lost sheep.
Peace,
Barry
This is another example of people who will not speak the truth. Why do they have to try and psycho analyze and make excuses for everything? A non celibate unmarried person is not eligable for ordination to be a minister in God’s Church. End of discussion. It doesn’t matter whether he is gay or not. Sex outside of marriage is not OK. I could get started on women’s ordination but I will leave that for later. Plus, don’t get on the “human rights” kick either. No one has a “right” to be ordained.
I often imagine the Lord looking down in amazement at what’s happening at his church (though he’s seen this sad kind of thing all too many times before), shaking his head and turning to the angels and saying, “What part of ‘Thou shalt not’ don’t they understand?”
Looks like the Presbyterians have learned all the right leftist Episcopal cliches.
And Kendall, as you said in your talk in Colorado that was transcribed on Stand Firm, the PCUSA does NOT want to emulate TEC? Sounds like they are well on their way to me!
[blockquote] Another man, an elder, questioned something Capetz said that he called “a bit dismissive of the importance of Scripture. I believe Scripture trumps all.â€
Capetz replied by saying that, “I certainly didn’t mean to sound dismissive of Scripture. What I’m opposed to is an idolatrous use of the Bible in Protestant usage and ethics as if we didn’t need to reflect in a rigorous method and manner what Scripture teaches … that all we have to do as disciples of Christ is to abide by Scripture. I think that runs dangerously close to idolatry.â€
“This is a denomination that prides itself on a very high level of theological education. Theology matters,†he said.[/blockquote]
By this statement alone, Capetz demonstrates he is spiritually unfit to serve as a Presbyterian minister. It also demonstrates that ultimately this is about twisting and mocking the Word of God, not practicing homosexuality. Of course, this has been going on since they cast Gresham Machen out of Princeton Seminary.
This is the kind of thing that either makes you laugh or cry, or both, one after the other. Yes, this is all despressingly familiar in one sense. It appears that the Presbyterians and Ltherans are determined to follow TEC like lemmings right over the cliff. Actually, that’s unfair. A better analogy would be that they, like us, are drifting along with our permissive culture, especially the Boomers, and they don’t seem to hear the roar of the waterfall ahead. And the drop is Niagara sized…
I can’t count how often I’ve heard liberal friends in TEC pat themselves on the back for being sophisticated. They love to claim that TEC is a church for “thinking people.” That Anglicanism is “a thinking man’s religion” (though, being also an “inclusive church,” they begrudgingly tolerate us biblical “literalists” and “fundamentalists”). But it’s all a crock, a sham.
Maybe we could learn a little humility. Here is some anecdotal evidence from my own educational experience. Here are three little bits of evidence that shows that our boast of being such a thinker’s church is more arrogance and wishful dreaming than reality.
First., I attended Yale Divinity School, a remarkably ecumenical place with a large number of Episcopal students due to the merger of YDS and Bekeley Div. School. I regret to say that in general the Episcopal students were academically INFERIOR to the Lutheran and Presbyterian ones, but about on a par with the Methodist ones.
Second, it’s no secret that the vast majority of TEC clergy are more “Feeling” types than “Thinking” types in terms of the famous Myers-Briggs categories (most are ENFJs or ENFPs, some INFJs or INFPs).
Third, last but not least, during the years that I worked on my Ph.D. at southern Presbyterianism’s flagship seminary, Union in Richmond, I met some fine doctoral students who were Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, even Mennonite and Roman Catholic (the doctoral program at Union-PSCE is very ecumenical, unlike the M.Div. program). But as the years went by, I wondered: why am I the only Episcopalian at Union? Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that in the late 1980s and early 1990s Union was widely regarded as the most conservative top notch Ph.D. program in the country (those were the glory days when Paul Actemeier and Jack Dean Kingsbury taught NT there, and James Luther Mays and Dean McBride taught OT; all four world-class biblical scholars have now retired and Union-PSCE has become significantly more liberal as well as less renowned academically).
The fact is, the creedally-oriented denominations, like the Lutherans and Presbyterians (at least they were creedally oriented in the past!), attract more sharp minds than TEC does. We are too vague and loose about even our core beliefs; those traditions are much clearer and more coherent theologically. That’s why it’s so sad when even Presbyterians fall for this kind of “gay is OK” nonsense. It’s simply capitulation to the permissive culture we live in. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with rigourous intellectual integrity. Nothing whatsoever.
David Handy, Ph.D.
Wheaton College (“the Evangelical Harvard”), B.A., 1977
Yale Div. School, M.Div., 1983
Union-PSCE in Richmond, Ph.D. in New Testament, 1998
(and your humble servant)
The various statements by those at the meeting described seem to substantiate this quote in the previous post: …..”care with language” is the “first casualty of original sin.”
My suggestion is that these folks read 1 Timothy & 2 Timothy about thirty times each. Maybe their ears won’t itch so!
Lemming or goats, I’m unsure which they are. Pity, when Christ Jesus stands ready to heal. They listen to secular apologists for the gay movement instead of reading God’s holy Word in scripture. Thinkers? I think not!
Pray for the lost sheep.
Peace,
Barry
Kendall, I believe the author’s name is spelled “Fischler.” Your title has dropped the “l.”
And yes, the revisionist infection is spread throughout Western Christianity.
This is another example of people who will not speak the truth. Why do they have to try and psycho analyze and make excuses for everything? A non celibate unmarried person is not eligable for ordination to be a minister in God’s Church. End of discussion. It doesn’t matter whether he is gay or not. Sex outside of marriage is not OK. I could get started on women’s ordination but I will leave that for later. Plus, don’t get on the “human rights” kick either. No one has a “right” to be ordained.
Dr. Handy, Thank you for your post. I must have been writing at the same time or somehow overlooked it. I have to agree with what you say.
Well done.
Drummie (#8-9),
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.
I often imagine the Lord looking down in amazement at what’s happening at his church (though he’s seen this sad kind of thing all too many times before), shaking his head and turning to the angels and saying, “What part of ‘Thou shalt not’ don’t they understand?”
David Handy+